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DaveTrojan

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 #1 
I've started a new thread on this topic in an effort to help ID this wreck.
from the original thread.

"My name is phil i live in ssf ca i am 36 years old when my grandfather was alive he always shared his interest with me about planes he used to have a propellor hanging up for the longest time and later tucked it away he passed away dec 15 th 2008 . well today my dad and i were talking about him and his propellor and he told me when my grandfather was young 13-14 maybe in the 1930-40s he found a crashed plane as he lived in daly city and the family owned a coal and hey business i believe this is  were he obtained the propellor and some wing parts also some canvass with the numbers 22 painted on it  black letters silver canvass seen that you are very involved in the history i was wondering if you can help me out   it would be fun to get some information thanks"

Photos added
Help needed to ID this wreck
number 22.JPG 
back of number.JPG 
prop and structure.JPG 
prop hub.JPG 


DaveTrojan

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 #2 
I was thinking it may be a PT-17, but the prop looks to be too small, so I do not know
the Buzz number 22 was most likely only used on military plane during that time. 
What military aircraft made of wood wings and fabric in use 1930-40s in the SF bay area.
Also I noticed the ribs look like they are vertical where they attached to the aircraft, On the PT-17- they were horizontal. 

PT-17 trainer.jpg

ChrisBaird

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 #3 
Little 6-bolt-hole prop. Could it be a Piper Cub or similar? The wing rib kinda matches.

You're right though. The fabric on the "22" is throwing me off. What are those yellow sleeves?

Chris B.

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ChrisBaird

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 #4 
This L-4 appears to maybe have those sleeves on the buzz number. Why would they be on the outside of the skin though?
And this is wrong time period (US Air Force silver paint job?). Not 30s-40s.

His prop appears undamaged. Must've been an engine out,slow speed belly flop. Did he find it in a remote area?

Chris B.

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Dennis

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 #5 
Back in the day, civie planes used large N numbers.  I believe the "sleeves" on the L-4 are just stencil lines.  Silver dope / paint was fairly popular.  Really doubt military on the prop as it doesn't seem to have a metal leading edge.  Dennis

Edit: also just noticed that the prop is pitched backwards - pusher?  D.
DaveTrojan

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 #6 
I was at the aviation museum today and I realized the following.
The "22" is most likely the last two digits of the civilian aircraft "N" or registration number that would have been on the wing.(see example below) The "22" is not the buzz number from the side of the fuselage. The style of the numbers matches an late 1930s and early 1940s aircraft, This is also confirmed by vertical lines and not side horizontal lines  and the wood structure that is also from the wing and the account that parts were taken from the wing. Also the prop is not from a military aircraft, it is too small and no metal leading edge and not labeled/numbered.
Also judging from the prop size and wing structure the aircraft is rather small.
SO, what we are looking for is a civilian aircraft with the last two registration digits "22" that has wood wings and wood prop. this is going to be hard to determine without more info. 
songbird.jpg   

SixbyFire

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 #7 
I did a ton of newspaper.com archive searches and only one hit really came up as anything remotely promising given the location and the fact all three on board the plane survived, however, one died later after being in a coma since the accident. When I checked the San Mateo County Death Records index, that actually gave me some hope that maybe this could be it since it described the incident as a "forced landing", but still no info on what kind of plane. I found a few stories about the actual crash, which puts it on "Hill 57", which is the eastern end of San Bruno Mountain, off Bayshore/101 north of Sister Cities/Oyster Point. This happened in 1933, which is a bit early in the timeline we're looking at I think but not too far off.

The small attachment is a screen shot of the SMCO Death Records index, the other is the story that I found about the death, the last is the smaller story about the accident. The larger newspaper article I found is too big to edit/post without it still being legible.

Again, not saying this is it, but that's all I was able to find around the right time period, where you would suspect that the propeller may have survived an accident. Not sure you'd call this area "Daly City", it would be more like Brisbane maybe, but the eastern end of Daly City isn't too far away.

Now, regardless of if this is it or not, I had previously thought that my son and I had found/researched the only two airplane accidents on San Bruno Mountain, both of which were P-39's and both in 1943, however, this one gives us something else to do some more research on. I doubt if it really was a forced landing anything would be left, this area is a county/state park, so no digging is allowed anyway. As it stands this area is also home to some Ohlone Shell Mounds, so I would suspect that any searches of the area would attract the wrong kind of attention. 

Jeff

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DaveTrojan

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 #8 
The newspaper does say south San Francisco, which would be the correct area, however, the second article said it nose dived and crashed, which would have most likely damaged the prop.
Keep researching civilian accidents in that area.
Dennis

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 #9 
Again, it appears to be a pusher prop, so a "nose dive", especially with a dead engine, might not damage the prop.  Dennis

EDIT: A Curtiss Junior comes to mind.  While it is a 2 place airplane, many accidents have happened because 3 people were sharing a 2 place aircraft
Note the large N number on top of the right wing. The "sleeves" might be where someone cut the tape over the rib stitching to remove the fabric section.  The wing rib pattern is not a direct match, but this is a start.  Dennis
Curtiss_Junior_056.jpg

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ChrisBaird

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 #10 
Looks good Dennis!

Early engine has the 6 bolt hub too. And the prop shaft is small (like the bore hole in that prop).

That prop had a red hub face plate on it,the old paint is still there.

Chris B

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ChrisBaird

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 #11 
There's one CW-1 Junior on here that ends with "22":

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/gy/Historic%20N.txt

ChrisBaird

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 #12 
Looks like early Franklin engines might've had a red face plate (6 bolt). Maybe they painted the crush plate red too.

Of course, a Franklin engine could be on anything from an Aeronca to a Taylorcraft!

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Dennis

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 #13 
The secret is in the backwards turning propeller.  I don't know of any (old) GA aircraft with a reverse turning prop*.  Modern day, almost all of the VW conversions (as well as Rotax) turn backwards (counter clockwise as viewed from behind the prop and facing forward. (This is why Piper Cubs had the door on the right side).  Haven't done a search yet to see if any other (old) GA aircraft were pushers.
FWIW: On fabric (tube and rag as we call them), the fabric is stitched to the ribs.  A protective reinforcement tape is glued over the stitching to give added strength.  Dennis

(This is almost as much fun as the "online wreck hunt" for the P-39 from years ago)

*My bad: Republic Seabee (which I believe had a Franklin engine)  This prop is definitely from a low power engine though.  D.
ChrisBaird

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 #14 
If you look at the third photo the prop shaft center hole is the same size as the hub bolt holes! I just noticed that. That is a small engine.
I wonder if it is just a decorative wall hangar and not related to the other parts...

Had a red clock in it. Ha.

Small air boat prop for the Bay?

Chris B.
DaveTrojan

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 #15 
Phil, please send more close-up pictures of the wood truss and measurements. 
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