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Mbfiorini

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 #46 
The aircraft impacted the earth at a severe angle and was embedded fairly deep, which usually correlates with a decent from high altitude and is not consistent with an aircraft on low approach.
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Mike Fiorini
wombat

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 #47 
Good Morning from Flagstaff Arizona,  Should this reply seem a tad sharp it is because I was first person to this event, and the recent comments are way off the mark. Goguac Lake where I had an office for 15 years is South of the City.  Kellogg Field is West of the City and the crash site is North of the city I heard the plane while still in flight, the course was initially from East to West and at some altitude when problems occurred the decent was rapid and the course near impact was from West to East. A lake in the area was Saint Mary's lake which is about 3-4 miles South and West of the impact site off of M-89 (or maybe M-66) fifty years dims some of that detail. The Impact site is East of the mentioned Highway; it has incorrectly been reported near Waubascon Road much closer to the City and where I built and maintained a 200 foot Microwave tower much later. A friend of mine was crew on an unrelated P-3 and commented on several instances of disaster known to be attributed to runaway in the hydraulics, this was the contemporary feeling back in the day. As I have previously reported and Trojan thru visit conformed, the impact was approaching vertical and the forward portion of the place was buried perhaps 20-30 feet in the tillable soil. All of these related events took place several miles North and East of WK Kellogg Field.  I knew the airport manager, Eugene Cartidge, as well as people working at the Air National Guard complex at the field, the consensus remains from then and the people contemporaneously associated with the event that some internal problem cause the crew to loose the ability to control the flight and near the end they were passengers and not in control.  As this crash is at 50 years old I felt it was import to sharpen the perspective to those factual elements so that those coming late will have good data to look at.  MC HNY  Ted Hartson  WA8ULG .
Jakewass

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 #48 
Are there 2 different crashes getting mixed up here? The P-3 crashed north east of Pennfield about 10 miles east and north of the airport, just as Wombat has said. Good bit of info on that one here. Also, there was a bomber that crashed in the block of Watkins, helmer, gethings, and stonejug rd, in late 40's or mid 50's. Basically, two country blocks south of the airport and west of Goguac Lake. Hard to find info on this one.
Rich

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 #49 
Since you say it made a 180 degree turn ("course was initially from East to West and at some altitude when problems occurred the decent was rapid and the course near impact was from West to East") what are the specifics of that turn---under control at start of turn?  out of control in a tight spiral?  where did it fly over before loss of control?  The comment about flying over intersection of I-94/Michigan Avenue puts it due East of the Goguac sighting and the South end of the airport.  The crash site is NW of that interchange.
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Rich
Rich

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 #50 
I've only heard of one P-3 accident.  A B-26 (Martin) crashed near the airport while in pre-deployment workups during WW II.  An ANG RB-57A apparently made wheels up landing where you describe in the '50s.  There are photos of other accidents in the area in the 50s but I haven't yet found out details.
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Rich
Rizor1947

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 #51 
We were having a July 4th picnic on the wooded hill at Willard Beach on Goguac lake when we heard it fly over. It immediately struck everyone in our group and others around us that something very unusual was occurring as the engines were alternately revving high and then would cut back. I had just had a powerplants class in Aviation Engineering at WMU and knew that there was a problem, plus I had never heard a large aircraft racing its engines then cutting back like that before. We only saw it briefly as it angled toward the NW then N, presumably toward Kellogg Field. Later, we heard that it had went down. I too saw the "You know you are from Battle Creek" facebook posting. It would be interesting to get a lot of peoples input regarding sighting locations and its course of flight on that day.
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Wayne Rizor
Mbfiorini

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 #52 
P-3s have 4 Allison T-56 turbo-prop engines which maintain a constant speed (13,820 rpm). Power setting is achieved by varying the attack angle of the propeller blades. You might have heard variations in power setting, but definitely not engine revving. If you had just taken a power plants course, you should have known the difference.
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Mike Fiorini
Rizor1947

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 #53 
I had the piston driven engine powerplants course, worked with horizontally opposed and radials. It had to be a change of the prop pitch to cause the alternating prop/engine noise volume.


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Wayne Rizor
Mbfiorini

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 #54 
You were probably hearing an aircraft in a death spiral. As it circles overhead, it is constantly changing direction, moving toward you then away. The doppler effect would make it sound asif the engines were revving.
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Mike Fiorini
Rizor1947

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 #55 
No, when I observed the aircraft is was flying level and gradually changing course to the north. It was not in a spiral and other than the changing pitch of the props from loud to nearly silent and alternating back again, there was no other indication that the aircraft was in trouble. But is was an abrupt head turner, we all stopped what we were doing to turn and look up at the aircraft. 


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Wayne Rizor
DaveTrojan

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 #56 
To clarify information about its final flight track, I'm posting the radar tracks from the official accident report. Sorry about the quality of the image, they are copies of copies and then they were compressed to meet the requirements of this web site. Uncompressed images available upon request. These images do show the flight path in relation to local land marks. I do believe there was a sudden emergency which incapacitated the crew and they vainly attempted to land the stricken aircraft. My report of this accident is due to be completed within the next month, Ill post it here. DaveT

map 2 - Copy.jpg  map 3 - Copy.jpg  map 4 - Copy.jpg   

Rizor1947

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 #57 
That looks like the flight path of the plane that I saw in the last radar track, but it is about five miles to the north. Could there have been a second four engine aircraft in the area? The aircraft I saw was much lower, I'd guess 3,000 at most. I grew up east of Battle Creek and we could hear military jets taking off at Kellogg field in those years at a distance of 7-9 miles away. I find it hard to believe that I could have, or anyone else in the area of Willard Beach, could have associated that sound with another aircraft at a distance.
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Wayne Rizor
wombat

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 #58 
Rizor and I believe grew up about 100 yds apart, I am Ted Hartson from 5 Palmer st......the issue of  hydraulics running away that has widely been reported WRT this plane and these Allison engines seems to fit the pattern of the events I encountered on that day.  I never saw the plane I heard it from a location perhaps 5 miles south of the impact site.  Where I was was probably 8-10 miles North of Goguac Lake and slightly east thereto. You could Google all that if it is important to someone. My home in 1966 was 31 Sanderson St rather close to Capitol NE and Emmett street. I will await Dave's final report. My conspiracy 'take' was that the failure mode was well known and understood, but lacking a clean forensic report from this plane it was just kind of let go and lost to the ages. I do know that I was the first on the hill (knoll) and had never seen such devastation. I drove ambulance for a volunteer group Emmett Rescue Squad in those days and had seen quite a bit.  Ted Hartson  hey Wayne from you neighbor 60 years ago 
Mbfiorini

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 #59 
The maps are very dificult to read and I have lived in the area. (On Garrison off Capital NE and on Martha 1/4 mile NE of Gogauc Lake) I didn't move to BC until 2,000 but have over 2400 hours in P-3s. The runaway condition associated with the Allison engines is a prop gearbox failure that results in the inability to feather the prop. It can result in the prop separating from the engine and even severe AC damage. When that occurs,debris is usually found outside the crash site.
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Mike Fiorini
DaveTrojan

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 #60 
Judging the altitude and distance of the aircraft from a ground observer is very difficult. 
Over 100 witnesses were interviewed for the report and their accounts varied considerably as to the direction and altitude of the plane. The Radar track is the best evidence. 
From the third image you can see that the plane did a 180 degree turn, descended, broke through the cloud layer, was observed from the ground, then impacted. It turned away from the airport. The sound heard by many eye witnesses was the Sound from the diving airplane caused by unbalanced or decoupled propellers condition between engines and propellers. Props self governing speed. Props speeding, engines throttled back. Propeller blade angles were recorded at 58-61 degrees, normal is 13-55. So the props were running away from the engines and decoupled. 
DaveT
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